Interview (Part 5): Cesar Vitale (2017 Black List, Nicholl Winner)
My 6-part talk with the writer of the script “The Great Nothing”.
Today in Part 5 of a 6 part series to run each day through Saturday, Cesar reflects on what it was like to win the Nicholl and make the 2017 Black List:
Scott: One of the things I notice in really good scripts is when they handle secondary characters with care and creativity. You did that with the character, Crusty. Basically, Dan needs someone to deliver heroin to him, and so, functionally speaking, that’s Crusty’s job in the story, is to be his “drug dealer,” even though we discover later on that he’s just been a middle man.
You create in this guy, this young boy. He’s, I think, on the spectrum?
Cesar: Yeah, Asperger’s.
Scott: He’s got a love of literature, but a horrible family situation. His father doesn’t want him reading, but Dan serves as a kind of mentor for Crusty. What was the inspiration for that character?
Cesar: That was an interesting character. I love writing side characters. They’re usually the most fun for me because there’s not the pressure of the main character, so you’re freer to play around with different and interesting choices. So, for Crusty, I needed a character to deliver heroine to Dan.
The first type of character that comes to your mind when you have to write a drug dealer is that classic drug dealer character that’s like, say, Jesse Pinkman, from Breaking Bad. Which is an amazingly well-written character, don’t get me wrong. But that type of character — I didn’t want that. I felt like my script had this offbeat vibe that was strong enough that I could subvert this character and pull the rug on the reader. So I just tried to think, “What is the opposite of a drug dealer? What is the opposite of Jesse Pinkman?” What’s the person we would least expect to be on the other side of that door, delivering heroine to Dan?”
That’s how Crusty started. As the story progressed, there were all these new traits added to him, like his love of books and philosophy, and the relationship with his father. But it started with, “What’s the person that you least expect is going to sell heroine?”
Scott: The books that Dan gives Crusty, the last one is Joseph Campbell, “The Hero With a Thousand Faces”, which as I said has been a huge influence on me. Crusty even quotes something from the book to Dan.
He says, Campbell’s words, “The hero must put aside his pride, his virtue, beauty in life, and bow or submit to the absolute intolerable.” What is Crusty trying to do there, do you think, with Dan?
Cesar: It doesn’t go that far, but it’s almost an instance of breaking the fourth wall there. It’s the moment that Dan has to stand up and be a hero for the story. He’s an antihero the whole time and he’s reluctant. At that moment, he has a choice. And Like Joseph Campbell says, the choice of the hero is never easy.
He has to put aside everything and be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good of whatever his quest is. In Dan’s case, that quest is helping June. Also, it’s facing up to his own death. I think Crusty’s also talking about that a little bit. That’s where that came from. That’s why I wanted to include that particular quote.
Scott: I was so struck in your script… Imagine a series of paths you took in writing. One path would be named Conventional Wisdom, what we would expect, just like what you did with Crusty where you said, “OK, well, here’s what would be a typical drug dealer. What could I do that would be different?” You do that in so many different respects there.
We expect Dan’s going to bond with Michelle and he’ll be there for the birth of her daughter. That would be kind of Hollywood approach, right?
Cesar: Mm‑hmm.
Scott: You said, no, not going to do that. Then Conventional Wisdom: June will befriend this dinosaur girl, Erica Staten, the one who’s been kept back two times. The two outsiders will connect with each other… No, not going to do that.
June will be present for Dan’s death in a dramatic scene. Nope, not going to do that. You veer down these unexpected paths. Is this an instinct that you have, a writerly instinct?
Cesar: Yeah, absolutely. Reading scripts and books, any kind of stories, it always annoys me when I can see something coming. I think it’s a mark of a poorly written story when you can tell what’s going to happen and then it happens. So I try to always surprise, to always be one step ahead of the reader. It’s very hard to balance that because you also don’t want random and unearned things to happen in your story.
A meteor can’t fall and kill Dan by page 90 because that doesn’t feel warranted. I think, to me, a lot of the fun and the challenge of writing is trying to find that balance where everything is pointing in the direction of this, and then that happens, but then it makes perfect sense in hindsight.
You’re like, “Jesus, yes, that’s good. I never saw it coming, but, now that I’ve read the whole story, I can see why it happened.” That’s what I try to go for in every scene, every character, and every moment. I think that’s what makes a story good, is when you’re surprised — when you don’t expect what’s coming.
Scott: You did a good job on that front. Several different points of the story just were, “Yep, that works, but it was not what I was expecting.”
Speaking of death, which is really right at the middle of the story, I was once writing a project about a young woman with terminal cancer. I wrote a good friend, Kurt Brown. Sadly, he died a few years ago. He was a poet and I asked him to recommend a good poem about death, just for some inspiration.
He emailed be back and he said, “Scott, all poems are about death.” I guess, if you think both literal and metaphorical, you may be able to say that about all stories. I was just curious. What’s your reaction to that idea, that basically all stories, in some respects, should or do deal with the subject of death?
Cesar: No, I love that. I’ve actually had the exact same thought about this. That every work of art is really, essentially, about death when you go deep enough. It’s weird to say because, actually, I think there was a line in one of my scripts where a character said something similar.
It wasn’t exactly that, but it was something like…A character is telling another character that’s a writer, “Why don’t you write a story about death?” and the other character says something like, “Because, every story I’ve ever read was about death,” so, yeah, I definitely agree.
It goes back to the other theory, Ernest Becker’s theory in “The Denial of Death,” which is that not only art, but everything we do, really deep down, is because we’re going to die and because we don’t want to have to face up to that fact. I definitely agree with that.
Scott: Let’s move to some life‑affirming moments.
[laughter]
Cesar: Yes, please.
Scott: You win the Nicholl. What was that like?
Cesar: That was surreal. I’m still not processing it. I’m still half expecting to wake up and be like, “Oh, it didn’t really happen. Of course it didn’t.” It was amazing. It was an amazing experience. It was an amazing week with the ceremony and all that.
I was born and raised in Brazil. It was never real to me, the possibility of being a screenwriter, of working in this business, even though I’ve always admired and loved it from a distance. It wasn’t real. To have been there, to have had the privilege of winning the award and having this become a reality is something that, honestly, it still doesn’t feel real.
Scott: Being named to the 2017 Black List, is that a little bit unreal as well?
Cesar: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been following the Black List for a couple of years. I still open the list every now and then, just scrolling until I see my name. I’m like, “Come on, this is not real.” [laughs] It’s insane. It’s insanely…I forget the English word for it, but I’m very humbled by it. It’s a privilege. That’s not exactly the word I was looking for, but it’s a privilege.
Scott: You’re represented.
Cesar: Yes, at Untitled Entertainment, and APA.
Scott: I’m assuming that once the new year rolls around ‑‑ because Hollywood shuts down right now, everybody goes to Aspen or wherever ‑‑ that you’ll probably be generating a lot of buzz off the Nicholl and the Black List. Do you look forward to doing all those meetings and meeting everybody that wants to meet with you in Hollywood?
Cesar: Yeah. I love taking meetings. I’ve talked to writers who don’t like it. For one reason or another, they’re not very comfortable with it.
To me, like I said, to have the privilege of discussing film, and storytelling, and my stories, and other people’s stories in a professional sense — that has never been something that I thought would be possible in my life. I just love everything about it. It doesn’t feel like work to me at all.
Tomorrow in Part 6, I ask Cesar a series of craft questions.
For Part 1 of the interview, go here.
Part 2, here.
Part 3, here.
Part 4, here.
Cesar is repped by APA and Untitled Entertainment.
Here is the video announcement by actor Sterling K. Brown that Cesar’s script had made the 2017 Black List:
For my interviews with 25 other Nicholl winning writers, go here.
