Interview: Darnell Hunt (Hollywood Diversity Report) — Part 1
One of the aspects about what the Black List does I resonate with most is the number of initiatives it sponsors to open doors for writers outside the Hollywood system. Initiatives like:
Partnership with The Walt Disney Studios
I want to see a wider variety of scripted entertainment created a more diverse group of writers. Different types of narratives. Different subcultures explored. Different voices heard. Unfortunately Hollywood does not have a good track record when it comes to diversity.
Recently I had the opportunity to speak with Darnell Hunt, professor of sociology at the University of California, Los Angeles and director of the university’s Ralph J. Bunche Center for African American studies. There is perhaps no one more qualified to speak on the subject than Darnell for reasons that will are readily apparent in this interview.
Today in Part 1, Darnell talks about the work of the Bunche Center, his involvement with the Hollywood Diversity Report and a litany of numbers demonstrating the sorry state of underrepresentation in the industry:
Scott Myers: You’re the Director of the Ralph J. Bunche Center for African American studies at UCLA. Could you tell us a bit about the Bunche Center and your responsibilities there?
Darnell Hunt: The Bunche Center was created in 1969, which means we’ve been around for 45 years. It was created out of the Black Struggle, the movement for Black Studies across America. We were one of the first research centers established. From the very beginning, it was all about conducting large‑scale research projects that probably wouldn’t otherwise be done.
Today we have about 75 faculty members, professors throughout UCLA across the campus — social sciences, humanities, professional schools — who are affiliated with us.
We raise money through foundations, from private donors and corporate donors to do large‑scale research projects that typically wouldn’t be done in academic departments. We’re independent. We’re like a think tank and the Hollywood Diversity Project is one of our core projects.
Scott: What was the impetus for the report?
Darnell: I’m a sociologist and I’ve been studying Hollywood diversity issues in the industry for about 20 years.
When I became director of the Bunche Center 13 years ago and we were laying out a research agenda, I knew that this was going to be one of the areas we must pursue. In the early 2000s, we did a series of studies called “Primetime in Black and White,” where we looked at primetime television and tried to gauge the representation onscreen of African Americans and other groups, as well.
That was the beginning of the center’s foray into this particular area. Over the last five or six years, we’ve been meeting with people in the industry, TV networks and movie studios, trying to get a sense of what the conventional wisdom is about this diversity issue, trying to figure out where the obstacles are and what the best practices are,
We have met with independent producers, actors, advocacy groups like the NAACP and the National Hispanic Media Coalition. Out of all those conversations came the idea for this particular study.
We realized there was a huge gap in what we know about diversity or the lack thereof in the industry. Anecdotally, we know it’s not a great picture, but no one had really mapped the entire landscape and done so on a continuing basis like we’re proposing to do with this project.
Scott: You basically took a snapshot of diversity in the industry in the year 2011.
Darnell: That’s correct. This is an annual report, we’re currently working on the 2015 report now. We’re always about a year, a year‑and‑a‑half behind, and the reason is, we have to wait for a season to end completely before we have comprehensive data.
Then it takes time to analyze the data. This is an incredibly labor‑intensive process. Our data set has like a hundred thousand cells in it, in terms of the data. We have multiple variables for every single TV show.
For example, last year we looked at 1,061 TV shows, believe it or not, across 60‑something cable networks and all the broadcast networks, as well as the top 200 films according to the box office.
It’s an incredible amount of data, and it takes a while to actually pull it all together, to clean it, to analyze it, and write the report. This coming report that we’re going to release in February 2015 is going to look at 2012 and 2013 in film, and the 2012‑2013 season in television.
Scott: Could you top-line some of the more notable examples in which there is a significant underrepresentation of women and people of color in the entertainment industry?
Darnell: One of the things that we note in the report is what we call the degree of representation. What we do is look at a given group in society, like, say, women, and look at their share of the population and how that relates to their share of different types of positions in the industry. We do the same thing with minorities.
If you look at underrepresentation, what we found is among film leads, minorities are underrepresented by a factor of more than 3 to 1; women, by a factor of about 2 to 1. If we look at film directors, we see that minorities are underrepresented by, again, a factor of about 3 to 1, but women, believe it or not, 12 to 1. Women are egregiously underrepresented among film directors.
Film writers, minorities, about 5 to 1; and women, about 3 to 1. In other words, you’d have to have three times as many women film writers before they would reach proportionate representation. We’re talking about pretty severe underrepresentation.
If we look at broadcast comedies and dramas and the lead characters, minorities ‑‑ underrepresented by a factor of 7 to 1. Women, on the other hand, reach proportionate representation in this area. In other words, their representation on the screen among leads in broadcast comedies and dramas is about what it should be.
In cable comedy and drama, leads ‑‑ minorities are underrepresented by a factor of more than about 2 to 1. They’re doing better in cable than in broadcast, largely because a lot of the cable stations are for a niche market and target certain groups. You have your BET’s, so African Americans are picking up some leads there they don’t see in broadcast.
About women, a little bit less than 2 to 1 underrepresentation, comedy, drama leads. For cable, reality, and other leads, minorities were underrepresented by a factor of greater than 2 to 1, and women right about 2 to 1.
If we look at broadcast, the comedy/drama creators, the people who actually come up with the concept and pitch it to the networks, minorities are underrepresented by a factor of nearly 9 to 1.
In other words, minorities may be working in the industry in front of the camera, but when it comes to actually creating the ideas that lead to the show concept, they’re virtually invisible. Women, about 2 to 1 underrepresented.
Finally, with cable comedy creators, minorities are doing a little bit better, but not great, underrepresented by a factor of about 5 to 1. Women, by a factor of greater than 2 to 1.
Lots of underrepresentation, lots of ground to cover. In fact what we’re seeing is if you look at the big picture over time, yes, clearly minorities and women are doing better today in television in film, then, they were say in 1970. Guess what? America is a lot more diverse than it was in 1970.
In fact, the gap between where we are and reaching proportion of representation has actually gotten bigger over time, not smaller.
Scott: On my blog, I have a database with every spec script sale made public since 1991. Some readers went through and tabulated the number of deals made by male and female writers, and the numbers there have actually been going down.
It was 14 percent from 1991 to 2000, 13 percent of women from 2001 to 2010. Now, 10 percent from 2011 to 2013, which is interesting, because 1 out of 2 New York Times bestsellers are women. Basically, 1 out of every 8 spec scripts sold is about a woman.
Those tend to align with what you found here. This is not anecdotal. This is like hard, actual evidence, right?
Darnell: Yeah. There’s a real structure operating in Hollywood that erects all kinds of obstacles and barriers for minorities and women. It’s very hard to overcome.
You have your examples like Shonda Rhimes, who is just a wunderkind who owns Thursday night on ABC. She happens to be a minority and a woman. She is by far the exception to the rule. It just doesn’t happen all that often. I gave you the stat for women directors in film. It’s just abysmal.
The question is, “Why?” There are obviously lots of talented women as you point out, bestsellers, and in other arenas, other cultural arenas women are doing really well.
What is it about the Hollywood industry? Part of it is, it’s a very insular industry. It’s an industry that has always been dominated by white males. It’s a very lucrative industry. People make lots and lots of money.
I do the Hollywood Writers Report for the Writers Guild. There are some incredibly high‑paid writers in the industry, who happen to also be show runners, and producers, executive producers, et cetera, who make a lot of money.
Once you get your foot in the door, and you become one of those “elites” in the industry, it’s almost like a revolving door of opportunities for you. You are constantly under trial, trying to get work, trying to increase your portfolio of projects. You want to make sure what you produce is successful, you tend to hire people you feel comfortable with.
What that typically translates into is white men are going to hire other white men, occasionally maybe a white woman. Someone who is “seasoned,” which means they’ve already been in the system which — guess what? That’s not minorities and women for the most part.
It becomes like this self‑reproducing machine that tends to turn out very similar types of projects that fit neatly into established genres that are dominated by white men. It becomes really, really hard for people of color and women to break into that clique.
Tomorrow in Part 2, Darnell provides some thoughts on the institutional nature of the diversity issue in Hollywood and how the studios and TV networks are leaving money on the table by not casting a wider net in terms of the stories they choose to produce.
You may follow Darnell Hunt on Twitter: @darnell_hunt.
To download a copy of the “2014 Hollywood Diversity Report: Making Sense of the Disconnect” mentioned in the interview, click here.