Interview: Darnell Hunt (Hollywood Diversity Report) — Part 2
One of the aspects about what the Black List does I resonate with most is the number of initiatives it sponsors to open doors for writers outside the Hollywood system. Initiatives like:
Partnership with Warner Brothers
I want to see a wider variety of scripted entertainment created a more diverse group of writers. Different types of narratives. Different subcultures explored. Different voices heard. Unfortunately Hollywood does not have a good track record when it comes to diversity.
Recently I had the opportunity to speak with Darnell Hunt, professor of sociology at the University of California, Los Angeles and director of the university’s Ralph J. Bunche Center for African American studies. There is perhaps no one more qualified to speak on the subject than Darnell for reasons that are readily apparent in this interview.
Today in Part 2, Darnell provides some thoughts on the institutional nature of the diversity issue in Hollywood and how the studios and TV networks are leaving money on the table by not casting a wider net in terms of the stories they choose to produce:
Scott: It’s interesting because the report you did talks about the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences as a contributing factor. The Academy’s membership is 93 percent white, 76 percent male, and the average age is 63.
As your report points out, when the award ceremonies come out and you see all these white, male faces, that tends to reinforce that perception, doesn’t it?
Darnell: Absolutely. It also reinforces the perception of what’s quality and what’s not.
If older white males have a monopoly on determining, more or less, what merits accolades, recognition in the industry, either through the Emmys or through the Oscars, and those types of projects are ones white males typically make and minorities and women don’t, it’s unlikely that when minorities do make it in the industry that their projects are going to be recognized as quality.
It becomes this self‑fulfilling prophecy — they’re not quite as good. After all, the industry really does recognize talent, and talent rises to the top. Again, it’s a rigged game because the way talent is being defined and the way quality is being defined basically privileges the white men who have always controlled the industry.
In a way, the Emmys and the Oscars work to justify the system as it’s currently operating.
Scott: We see the same sort of mentality with tracking services. So‑called ‘urban movies’ like Ride Along or Let’s Be Cops, the tracking services for both of those films underestimated their opening weekend grosses by at least $10 million. And the thing is, they consistently do this. Do you think that’s a reflection of a kind of ingrained conventional wisdom that underestimates the size and scope of, for example, the African American movie‑going audience?
Darnell: Absolutely. One thing we know for sure is that people of color watch more television and they spend a larger share of their disposable income on entertainment activities like going to movies.
African Americans, Latinos are heavy moviegoers. Their populations are increasing. The headline’s on the wall. America will be majority minority by 2025 or so.
Business as usual today in the industry is just not sustainable, and that’s one of the things we try to point out in the report. Moreover, we find that the conventional wisdom just doesn’t hold up when it comes to what audiences, particularly diverse audiences, want to see.
One of the things we found in our study… I believe is the first time this has been documented certainly as comprehensively as we have… we found that films and TV shows that are more diverse in terms of their cast, particularly those that are from 30 to 40 percent diverse… right now, the American population is about 36, 37 percent minority… films and TV shows with casts that have diversity within that range, on average, do the best in terms of box office, and they do the best in terms of ratings.
You would think that an industry predicated on profits would recognize this and suddenly shift its business practices to start making films and TV shows that target the sweet spot.
For the most part, this hasn’t happened. This year is interesting. ABC Disney, for example, has really gone out on a limb to tout the diversity of their new programs. There are a number of other programs that have cropped up on other networks.
I’m talking television right now. I’m really looking forward to our future data set that will actually analyze this year to see if, in fact, this is a turning point or whether or not it’s just an aberration and we go back to business as usual.
There hasn’t been the recognition of this reality in terms of business practices in the industry, which is why our report is subtitled is “Making Sense of the Disconnect.” This whole disconnect between underrepresentation on the one hand in terms of people of color and women in the industry, and the fact, on the other hand, that diversity actually sells. How do you explain that disconnect?
Scott: Exactly. I remember there was a quote back in June from the CEO of the National Association of Theater Owners in which he said, “Hispanics are far and away the most important consumer at our cinemas, and that Hispanics go to movies six times a year on average compared to four for everyone else.”
When we see people in positions of authority like that publicly acknowledging these facts, do you feel like maybe it’s beginning to filter into the consciousness of the people who run the business?
Darnell: Yeah, I think it is. It’s going to have to eventually if the industry is going to remain viable. If not, it’s going to be like a dinosaur.
There are going to be other ways that people will have access to the stories and the images they want to see. In fact, it’s no accident that web series, for example, are exploding right now. The Internet has created this opportunity for independent storytellers who can’t get work in Hollywood to go out and do the stories they want to do, and many of them are finding audiences.
Basically, the networks are like tents. Because of their profile, they can pull in millions of people. All they have to do is advertise their latest show and they’re guaranteed to get a certain amount of viewers. Whether or not they can hold the viewer because the show is quality is another story, but they have a very high profile and people are aware of them.
If you’re starting your own YouTube channel, no one knows who you are from Adam. You might have a great story to tell, but your challenge is finding an audience, bringing eyeballs to your YouTube channel.
That’s the struggle, I think, for people who have gone the independent route, but more people are doing it. More people frustrated with the same old story over and over again on the conventional networks and cable networks are turning to web productions for that very reason.
The networks in Hollywood are leaving money on the table because they’re not recognizing there’s a need out there or a hunger for this type of diverse storytelling they’re just not structured to tell right now. They don’t have enough people of color or women with green‑lighting authority or in positions to create content.
Not just to star in it or to be lucky to be in the writing room, but to actually create the concept that pretty much sets the thing in motion.
Scott: Vamping off that, one argument I’ve seen, at least, in relation to screenwriting, is Hollywood doesn’t care if you’re white, black, male, female. All they want is a great script. Which I think, in theory, is true. No one’s stopping anyone from writing a spec script. Your report has a very interesting analysis about the corporate agency model. Could you talk a bit about that and why you think that may be a contributing factor to this ongoing issue of underrepresentation?
Darnell: The three major agencies control a large amount of the packaging that goes on for television and movies. They essentially provide a service to the networks and the studios by selling them prepackaged goods.
In other words, they’ll bring a concept, they’ll have the script, they’ll have the lead actors attached, they’ll have the writer, they’ll have the director, and they’ll sell the whole package to the studio so they don’t have to go through the trouble of developing that part of it themselves.
They’ll do the same thing for a TV series. That’s what the agencies are in business to do. We spent a lot of time talking to the agencies, and the agencies say, “We are in business to sell to networks and studios. We have to sell them what they want. If they told us they wanted X then we would provide them with X, and we’re providing them with what they say they want.”
In other words, they’re passing the buck saying the fact our rosters are predominantly white and male is a reflection of what the networks and studios are telling us they want.
Again, you have this self‑reproducing machinery in place. Unless it’s short‑circuited somehow, you keep producing the same thing over and over again. The A‑listers are going to be white and male, for the most part, and the A‑listers are going to be the ones attached to the big, multi‑million dollar budget films that are going to receive widespread distribution along with everything else.
The same is true with the bigger TV shows that are produced and marketed and promoted, and so on.
As a middle man in the process, the agencies have a huge impact on who is likely to receive recognition and find their way to the market. There was a really important study done by sociologists back in the late 1990s. William and Denise Bilby, who actually used to do the Hollywood Writers Report for the Writers Guild before I took it over about eight years ago.
Documenting that if you don’t have representation by these major agencies, you have a much steeper climb in order to make it to the promised land in terms of getting that plum project, either on television or in film.
Having major agency representation opens doors for you. If the rosters are largely white and male then women and majorities are going to have a hard time finding their way through doors. That’s been, I think, the way that agencies factor into this problem.
Tomorrow in Part 3, Darnell talks about the role of bias and some possible “best practices” that can emerge to address the issue of underrepresentation in Hollywood.
For Part 1 of the interview, go here.
You may follow Darnell Hunt on Twitter: @darnell_hunt.
To download a copy of the “2014 Hollywood Diversity Report: Making Sense of the Disconnect” mentioned in the interview, click here.